(Bill B had sent a post attacking a satiric song sung by Norwegian troops):
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 1:57 PMSubject: [GreenLeft_discussion] Nato troops' song hits sensitive chord
This sort of things shows how the lying and insidious propaganda (which was widely disseminated to justify NATO's bombing campaign against Serbian civilians six years ago and repeated by many on the "left") - Kosovo Albanians = victims of "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing",Kosovo Serbs and Roma = "mad dogs who should be shot" spurs on the brutality of Imperialism's occupying armies today and it's no surprise that they give racist KLA thugs carte-blache to terrorise the non-Albanian populations of Kosovo -
Fully armed and patrolling deserted Kosovo back roads, the Norwegians sing "protecting human rights, air strikes and fire fights, and we'll be dropping bombs wherever Serbian bad guys hide ... just up from Kosovo (in Serbia)".
"Somewhere far overseas, there's a place called Kosovo, that's where you don't want to go if you're Albanian at all... Milosevic, you son of a [expletive]."
... While Belgrade fumed and Nato squirmed, Kosovo Albanians seemed to share the Norwegians' irreverent take on the situation.
"The clip shows that international soldiers in Kosovo are not machines but humans with feelings and opinions about reality. I don't find the clip offensive but instructive," Kosovo Albanian art editor Arif Muharremi said.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7E79EE45-7017-4FA6-981C-631439FB9C44.htm
Me:
Wow you just don't get it do you Bill, anyone that reads the lyrics of the Norwegian troops' song can see it's a satire, they are ridiculing imperialist intervention throughout the world:"Somalia, Grenada, rescuing Kuwait, we screw ya, Rwanda, wish we could have helped ya, Iraqi embargo ... "
"Down in Kosovo, we'll kick some [expletive] and then we'll see how it goes, and then we really don't know. Good luck to Kosovo.
"Every time we go to little places like Kosovo, we never really know what happens after we go ... It's Europe and Nato, why the hell do we go?"
Surely it's not half obvious they are ridiculing the idea of protecting human rights through air strikes and rhetoric about 'bad guys':
"protecting human rights, air strikes and fire fights, and we'll be dropping bombs wherever Serbian bad guys hide ... just up from Kosovo (in Serbia)".
But of course Bill will seize any chance to continue his crusade. Meanwhile I still don't get a clear answer from anyone on the Chetnikophilic wing of the "left" about whether these NATO troops should remain in Kosova - I've been asking this for about the last 2 years, to any number of opponents on discussion lists. You claim to oppose NATO but in fact all my opponents on this question want NATO to remain (at least they never deny it when I put it to them) because you know that NATO imperialist occupation is the one and only thing standing in the way of the Kosovar people exercising their right to self-determination and setting up an independent state.
Keep up the vicious "left" hate propaganda against everything Albanian, keep up the warped depiction of Albanians as sub-human monsters who cannot be trusted to run their own state, just like the Iraqis can't be, keep up this backing up of imperialism which for the last 6 years (and still) has used the plight of the Serbs and other minorities as its Number 1 excuse for maintaining a colonial occupation and blocking indpendence and precisely this is exacerbating the problems in Kosova, including the anti-Serb chauvinism among many Albanians. Because to the Chetnikophilic wing of the "left", there is one thing far worse than imperialism, and that is Albanians and the idea that the Kosovar people could possibly dare to exercise the same right to self-determination as the Timorese, the Bangladeshis, Eritreans, Vietnamese, Algerians etc have exercised and which we advocate for the Palestinians etc, a right they have been fighting for for over 100 years.
Bill B:
Well - I get that calling all of the Serbian civilians murdered by NATO as part of it's long held plan to have permanent military bases in the Balkans to protect it's oil interests and all of the non-Albanian population of Kosovo ethnically cleansed and those Macedonians kidnapped and tortured by the KLA in it's pursuit of a Greater Albania "Chetniks" totally reactionary.
Socialists I know not only want Imperialists troops out of the Balkans they didn't want them there in the first place unlike the KLA (who clapped and cheered as the bombers flew over from Aviano air base as Blair visited the "refugee camps") and by inference their "left" and "green" supporters.
When the NATO occupiers rampage around the Balkans invading monastries and beating up the congregation during Easter services in pursuit of the conveniently at large Karadic (the "Bin Laden" of the Balkans) and sit back while the KLA go on a racist rampage in Kosovo this is not "satiric" to the victims - they know that treating Serbs,Roma and so on as untermenschen by the NATO occupiers is driven on by the insidious propaganda and lies put out by NATO/"left" supporters of the KLA - the "rape camps",hundreds of bodies down mineshafts etc. etc. etc. - in order to justify their occupation.These have all been proved to be lies - but given that those who splashed them all over their front pages are not so quick to print the U.N. statements showing them to be lies the occupiers still believe that they are dealing with a race of rapists and murderers just as many in the U.S army still think that they are dealing with those who caused "9 11" in Iraq - we see where such propaganda leads.
It's only due to the Imperialist occupiers being split on how to "deal with" the "Serbian problem" (Hungary,Bulgaria and so on having long supported Germany's plan to dismember the country completely and wipe it off the face of the Earth - but why should "barbaric" Serbs have a right to "self determination"? - everyone "knows" they are just Nazis and have been for the last 800 years as NATO/KLA and their "left" supporters tell us so) that when the KLA organised a march on Mitrovica waving their NATO flags and Stars and Stripes demanding the Serbs and Roma who had found refuge in the town be left to their tender mercies they were not allowed into the North of the town - but the French occupiers did disarm the Serbs so they couldn't defend themselves and so leave them dependent on the occupation forces for a minimal degree of protestion against the heavily armed (by Germany/C.I.A.) KLA thugs.
In other words - in your blind support of the Albanian nationalist bourgoisie and their alliance with NATO you have to falsify history and demonise all non-Albanians as "Chetniks" because that fits in with your preordained ahistorical view of the Balkans. NATO and the racists in the region value such support - especially as it comes from the "left".
Me:
Anyone tiring of the last 20 or so frantic Lord Ludd messages on Kosova might be interested in this excellent piece by Jonathan Steele:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,2763,1490685,00.html
Steele is not someone who can be accused of being unsympathetic to the plight of either Albanians or Serbs in the regional catastrophe created by Serbian fascism and then crowned by NATO terror.
In fact he begins his piece with a harrowing account of an attack on a block of units housing minority Serbs by Albanian chauvinists in the post-war era, only narrowly helped to escape by NATO troops arriving at the last moment. His sympathy for the minorities is obvious and genuine. Unlike the Luddites of the world, that doesn't prevent him from also being sympathetic to the far greater terror experienced by the Albanians, the plight of thousands of Albanians murdered by the Serbian occupation army and Chetnik paramilitaries, in fact, being an intellectually honest person unlike the Ludds and Parentis with their apologetics, lies and stupidities, he begins by noting the fact, and I mean *the fact*, that "forces under Slobodan Milosevic started a campaign of ethnic cleansing and the guerrillas of the Kosovo Liberation Army sought to defend the majority Albanian community." Facts are stubborn things.
While roundly condemning terror by Albanian extremists against Serb and other minorities, in fact this is the major part of the article, Steele also places it in context. First, he quotes a Serb refugee who has returned to her former mixed village with the support of the Albanian mayor, and whose return forced an Albanian family out (Albanians live in deserted Serb homes because 100,000 Albanian homes were destroyed by the ramaging Serbian Chetnik army in 1999 and 6 years of UN control has done nothing to rebuild them). She gave all her furniture to the departing Albanian family in a geture of goodwill, explaining: "In 1999 all our Albanian neighbours' houses were burnt. We did our best to protect them, but I felt I had to give him everything," says Mazic. He and his wife got new kitchen equipment and a TV from a foreign charity. "We're glad to be home but I can't say we're happy. Our (Albanian) neighbours have sons who are still missing. We know how hard it is for them to talk to us. We just don't want them to hate us."
Thus, unlike the Ludds, Parentis, Chossudovsky's and other such worthless and reactionary apologists for ethnic cleansing, this Kosovar Serb refugee understands that her Albanian neighbours whose houses were burnt and whose sons are still missing may well harbour not very loving feelings. The Ludds of the world prefer a whole lot of "left" hate-speech against sub-human Albanians who are simply beyond the pale.
In similar vein, Steele quotes an Albanian Kosovar that ""In Holland, if you speak German no Dutchman will talk to you again. Here, it's only six years since the war and we're asked to behave as though nothing has happened," says Sabri Popaj, a 46-year-old farmer who testified against Milosevic at the Hague as the lone survivor of a massacre in which 168 Albanians were killed, including his two teenage children and numerous cousins." Steele, unlike Ludd et al, understands when you see genocide against your whole family and whole village in front of your eyes, it may well lead to tensions, including reverse terror, later.
Steele could have gone further than Dutch not talking to people who speak German and noted that at the end of WWII, some 14 million German civilains were driven out of Poland, East Prussia (in Russia), Sudetanland (in Czechoslovakia), Yugoslavia etc, of whom some 2 million died oon the road, an appalling horror, yet one would hardly argue that therefore there was no difference between the nazi occupiers and the resitance movements in E Europe - the real responsibility for the fate of the German civilians lies with the Nazi occupiers, in the same way as the fate of Israeli civilains in suicide bombings lies with the Israeli occupiers, and the fate of the Serb civilians post-1999 lies with the Serbian occupiers who had just killed 10,000 people and exelled 850,000 from their homes.
Yes of course, when recently Chinese mobs smashed Japanese shop windows to protest the Japanese govts textbooks apologetics for genocide that occurred 60 years previously, every good leftist in the world supported the Chinese. Yes, I also suported them up to a point, though not the smashing of windows and other such acts of terror against local Japanese. Oh, but that of course is understandable, "Chinese" are good people, maybe they went a little too far. However, when a portion of the Albanian population reacts very badly, not 60 years later, but immediately afterwards, after their own Al Nakbah, a great number of good "left" citizens around the world have a very different opinion, because Albanians, after all, are "bad people", especially to the Chetnikophilic wing of the "left".
(BTW, in brief response to Ludd's nonsense, I use "Chetnikophilic" as an explicit *political* reference to pro-Chetnik politics, it has nothing to do with being "Serbophilic" or "pro-Serb" etc which are terms having no political content. I am also "pro-Serb" if we are talking about anti-fascist Serbs, and "pro-Croat" when talking about anti-fascist Croats etc. The wing of the "left" who are professional apologists for serbian chauvinism, Islamophobia, genocide and ethnic cleansing are not "Serbophilic" they are "Chetnikophilic", ie supporting the political line of the Chetniks, which was reintroduced into the Serbian mainstream by Milosevic in the late 1980s when he overthrew the Yugoslav revolution and smashed Tito's legacy)
But Steele's most important political point comes towards the end, where he compares the situation in Kosova with that in neighbouring Macedonia. Following a brief civil war between the country's Macedonian majority and Albanian minority, a peace process carried out reforms giving the Albanian minority a clearer role in Macedonia, and the Albanian rebel leaders even joined a coalition government with the major moderate Macedonian party. Steele looks at the differences which have allowed ethnic reconciliation to proceed faster in Macedonia than in Kosova. His conclusion, which is entirely spot on, is that the main difference is that Macedonia is independent and no-one is threatening its independence, or threatening to partition it - the Albanian rebel leaders made this abundantly clear. By contrast, the Kosovars have still till today received no clear signs guaranteeing their independence, quite the contrary in fact, while Belgrade and most Serb minority leaders insist absurdly that it should be shoved back under Serbian rule or partitioned. Most people should be able to understand the sheer horror that such a prospect provokes among Kosovar Albanians, most people that is who think and empathise, obviously not your Ludds and the odd aloof "left" professor over in the US or Canada or somewhere. Give me Steele any day. Here is Steele's way of putting it:
"But there is one even more important difference. I was told numerous times that everything depends on the majority being confident the existence of their state is not under threat. Macedonians, who are a clear majority, once feared the largely Albanian parts might split off, but that fear is now discarded since all sides realise that entry into the EU would be impossible if war resumed or the state split."
"In Kosovo, the state question is unresolved. As long as the Albanian majority is not assured that the door has permanently slammed on Serbian rule, tensions are bound to continue."
Spot on. In fact, during the 1990s, the macedonian state was very much under threat, not mainly from Albanians wanting to partiton it, but due to the refusal of the Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian bourgeoisie to recognise a Macedonian nation and various discussions to split it, ie do a Bosnia to it. This threat has since subsided. It is only the Kosovars within the whole Balkans who still have to live with such uncertainty.
I'll find time to answer Ludd's last 20 or so frantic posts sometime the next few days, but till then I think Steele does one of the best jobs I've seen. I may not necessarily agree with every sentence, but the read is a must for anyone trying to understand what is happening now in Kosova:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,2763,1490685,00.html
Les E:
For those who have denied Serbian Govt. directed massmurder in the Balkans -- Les Evenchick New orleans
"Officials unable to deny 1990s crimes Video forcesSerbs to admit massacre June 4, 2005
BY KATARINA KRATOVACASSOCIATED PRESS
BELGRADE, Serbia-Montenegro -- The gruesome videoshown this week of the 1995 killing of six skinnyyoung Bosnian Muslims by Serb paramilitaries isforcing Serb leaders to finally acknowledge theircountry's role in the worst massacre in Europe sinceWorld War II.
The video of the July 1995 killings near Srebrenicamark the first time most Serbs have seen such imagesand could change the way the nation thinks of theslaughter in Bosnia, where Serb troops overran theenclave and killed 8,000 Muslim men and boys.The images prompted Serbian officials to acknowledgepublicly that war crimes were committed by Serbsduring the wars in the Balkans in the 1990s."Everything burst -- the whole bubble of hidingevidence and denying crimes -- within the 10 minutesit took to broadcast the video," said Natasa Kandic, ahuman rights activist from the Belgrade-basedHumanitarian Law Fund.
Serbian President Boris Tadic somberly told the nationthe images were "proof of a monstrous crime committedagainst persons of a different religion. And theguilty had walked as free men until now, walked amongus."
Bill B:
--- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, les evenchick <piratefish@y...> wrote:> For those who have denied Serbian Govt. directed mass> murder in the Balkans -- Les Evenchick> New orleans> > "Officials unable to deny 1990s crimes Video forces> Serbs to admit massacre
Yes well "piratefish" - given that you have so often told us to refer to the "kosovarpress" (U.S.A.) for information it is no wonder that are you are cock-a-hoop in order to cynically salivate over the showing of this video at the NATO kangaroo court at the Hague.
Does it not occur to you that this video has been in possession of NATO for years ?- and that the videos showing your "freedom fighters" - Bosnian Muslims/Croation Fascists' - massacres will simply not be shown by your allies as they are your favoured pro-Imperialist mass murderers (for the time being).
You may base your "leftism" on anti-Serb racism as much as you like - and indeed it may well come about that Imperialism manages to "subdue" the Balkans by creating any number of ethnically pure mini states to your liking and,indeed,wipe Serbia off the face of the earth (your preferred "final solution").
Unfortuneately for you ALL of the peoples of the Balkans have a right to self-determination - not just those who have the support of a NATO/"left"/"anti-fascist" alliance.
This video - which everyone knew about years ago (it is in Bosnia by the way not the Serbian region of Kosovo - sorry to bring geography into this) - has been produced because the attempt to blackmail/threaten the populations of the Balkans into compliance with Imperialist/"left" bowing down to occupation demands - joining NATO/ The European Union have been thrown into disarray by the people of the very countries of those Imperialist alliances (the ones you applauded,in effect, in their bombing of the civilian populations of Yugoslavia when you regurgitated their propaganda about "rape camps" in Kosovo (lies) and "thousands of bodies down the Trepca mines"(lies) and "Operation Horseshoe" - the plan by Serbia to drive the Kosova Albanian population from their homes *before* the NATO/KLA bombing -(lies)) rejecting their own governments plans' for a "European Union".
That leaves your racist,pro-Blair/Bush "liberation armies" up a gum tree without a paddle - and although there will be many more murders carried out by your KLA heroes eventually NATO - and scum like you - will be kicked out of the Balkans and it will be possible to create a Socilaist federation in the region with due regard to all ethnic concerns but WITHOUT outside interference - whether that be NATO or the "liberal" "left" - or indeed,as was the case six years ago,the two in alliance.
What a piece of pirateshit you are - Imperialist propagandist and racist ahistorical bullshitter.
It is instructive to see how certain "lefts" only post to this list when their masters (NATO,Project for a New American Century,Reporters Without Borders etc. etc.) call them up with their dog whistles.
They are salivating over the release by NATO of film showing Serb fascist paramilitaries murdering Bosnian civilians (thus in their eyes justifying their own backing of the KLA's terror campaign against the non-Albanian populations of Kosovo - another country altogether).
When of comes to the massacre of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians these "lefts" are silent - at least as far as these forums are concerned.
That,for them, is "banal" - it's "Vietnam all over again" - pay lip service to it and move on. When it comes to the "New Holocaust" in Yugoslavia they really have got something to get their teeth into though.
They not only can flaunt their "left" credentials - they have plenty of "evidence" (reportage and film) to back it up from the Imperialist media.
So easy to sell - and a "feel good factor" too. Many will die on back of this "left"/Imperialist triumphalism - but who cares? - they have been proved "right" (as NATO films show).
Norm Dixon:
--- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "lordludd66"<lordludd66@y...> wrote:> It is instructive to see how certain "lefts" only post to this list > when their masters (NATO,Project for a New American > Century,Reporters Without Borders etc. etc.) call them up with their > dog whistles.
This is an outrageous statement by Lord Lud and is clearly in breachof this list's stated guidelines of comradely discussion. Are youreally suggesting that there comrades on this list in the pay ofimperialism. I suggest you withdraw this lie and apologise.
Me:
----- Original Message ----- From: "lordludd66" <lordludd66@yahoo.com>
> What a piece of pirateshit you are - Imperialist propagandist and > racist ahistorical bullshitter.
Given that this nutter "Lord Ludd" thinks such gratuitous abuse is fine for the GreenLeft list, and the above quote is only one little bit out of a post full of such bile, gloves are off.
"Lord Ludd" is a drunken boofhead, a complete know-nothing loudmouth. He has never actually said anything of any use on this list, he knows zilch about the Balkans which he continues to give sermons about, and he never replies to actual arguments people make in opposition to his semi-fascist, politically illiterate views.
Let's see:
Ludd:
> Yes well "piratefish" - given that you have so often told us to > refer to the "kosovarpress" (U.S.A.) for information it is no > wonder that are you are cock-a-hoop in order to cynically salivate > over the showing of this video at the NATO kangaroo court at the > Hague.> Does it not occur to you that this video has been in possession of > NATO for years ?
Me:
The video, meathead, was handed over to the Serbian government by the Serbian Humanitarian Law Centre, a Serbian organisation consisting of Serbs who are opposed to all the fascistic violence unleashed by the Serbian ruling class against all the other peoples of the Balkans since 1988. Like a vast part of Serb society, they are opposed to the extreme right-wing chauvinist policies of their rulers, in much the same way we leftists are opposed to that of our rulers. For the Ludd-brains of the world, however, they seek to be "pro-Serb" by supporting the most reactionary forces of darkness, such as the ultra-right 'Scorpions' militia shown in this sickening video. Whether 'NATO' had it in its possession for years or not is irrelevant, but the idea is kind of stupid, like most of what Ludd writes, because the *prosecution* phase of the Milosevic trial went on for one and a half years, and so it would have been in their interests to show it then, now that it is during the defence part of the trial, the prosecution is trying to work out how they can use it.
In any case, shouldn't you actually applaud the fact that Kostunica immediately ordered the arrests of the Scorpion scum seen on the video, who for the last 10 years had been walking around belgrade as normal citizens? Shouldn't you actually use that to show that not all Sers are fascists and Chetniks, that vast numbers are opposed to this, even Kostunica pretended to be "shocked, horrified" by waht he saw. Of course, he is a hypocrite who in the past supported exactly such far-right forces in both Bosnia and Kosova, but the poiunt is is he now under pressure from decent people within Serbia, ie Serbs, my kind of Serbs, but obviously not Ludd's kind, I guess he prefers the Scorpions-type.
Ludd:
- and that the videos showing your "freedom > fighters" - Bosnian Muslims/Croation Fascists' - massacres will > simply not be shown by your allies as they are your favoured pro-> Imperialist mass murderers (for the time being).
Me:
None of Ludd-brain's opponents have ever supported massacres by Croatian fascists, Bosnian Muslims, the KLA or anyone else, the only difference is that Ludd DOES support and continually apologise for and deny the existence of the far greater crimes carried out by the serbian fascists, who, after all, had the benefit of having the 4th largest armed forces in Europe, with massive quantities of military equipment stolen from the old Yugoslav army, to carry out their massacres with, unlike the other forces.
Ludd breathes a lot of nonsense fire, but can't work out the fact that it is not only Milosevic and Serbian fascists at the Hague, but also large numbers of Croatian fascists and modest numbers of Bosnian Muslims and Kosovar Albanian KLA leaders. That even after Croatia has delivered some 25 or so indictees to the Hague, a great many for crimes associated with killing Serbs and the ethnic cleansing of the Krajina in 1995, the fact that just one indictee, Gotovina (also for Krajina) has not been delivered is enough to hold up Croatia's EU bid, and Hague boss Carla del Ponte has been absolutely firm on this. And the EU state most vociferous that Croatia must hand over Gotovina before any EU progress can occur is none other than Blairite Britain which you love to hate. You can't get it that even though Ramush Haradinaj, former KLA leader and then head of the political party AAK, as Kosovar prime minister from December 2004 to march 2005 did more to build confidence with the Serb minority than any leader to date, yet when the Hague formally indicted him for alleged crimes against Serbs in 1998, he had to quit this good work immediately and go to the Hague.
Ludd:
You may base your "leftism" on anti-Serb racism as much as you > like -
Me:
You stinking hypocrite, what words of anti-Serb racism did piratefish use in his post - it was a post about the actions of the reactionary Serbian regime and ultraright paramilitaries slaughtering Muslims, you are the racist, because you are the one that thinks that massacres by Serbian fascists of vast numbers of people throughout the Balkans are irrelevant, while massacres of far smaller numbers of Serbs by reactionary or chauvinist forces among other groups have to be played up to the max. If Kosovar Albanian extremists attack Serbs in March 2004, not the Kosovar state, which doesn't exist, not the Kosovar army, which doesn't exist, not the ethnically mixed Kosovar police, which tried lamely to fight the extremists, but by spontaneous groups of extremists in society, and these pogroms leave a total of 8 Serbs - and 11 Albanians - dead, well that is such a disaster that Kosova should be denied independence forever, but when massively armed Serbian fascists, militia operating directly under the Serbian Internal Ministry, together with the Serbian and Bosnian Serb armies, massacre 7800 Muslim captives in Srebrenica in 1995 - a figure recently confirmed by the Bosnian Serb "government" - then you think that is just propaganda or perhaps the Muslims deserved it anyway for daring to be the majority of the population in a part of Bosnia deemed to be "Serb territory" by a bunch of racists including Ludd, and never mind the fact that these Muslims were denied arms for years due to the imperialist arms embargo on Bosnia, and never mind that a large number of Serbian human rights organisations have condemned this massacre, and all the massacres, in no uncertain terms, for non-Serbs like Ludd, these heroic Serbs are "anti-Serb" and only the racists and genocidists are "true Serbs"
Ludd:
> and indeed it may well come about that Imperialism manages > to "subdue" the Balkans by creating any number of ethnically pure > mini states to your liking and, indeed, wipe Serbia off the face of > the earth (your preferred "final solution").
Me:
You total liar and fool. It is ethnically pure states that Serbian fascism tried to create everywhere it went. When it conquered one third of Croatia in 1991 in which less than half the population was Serb, it had to expel the other 500,000 Croats in order to set up the "Republic of Serbian Krajina".
What the f are you talking about, "ethnically pure", when a state actually has the ethnic name in it, on territory resulting purely from ethnic cleansing. When Serbian fascists conquered 70% of Bosnia via ethnically cleansing it of over a million non-Serbs (mainly Muslims and significant Croats as well), compared to the wartime population of no more than 6-800,000 Serbs, and calls this region the ethnic exclusivist name "Republika Srpska" (Serb Republic), is this not setting up ethnically purified states? When we defended multi-ethnic Bosnia against both the ALLIED Serbian and Croatian fascists who both expelled Muslims to create their ethnically pure states in Bosnia, when we defend a government led by Bosnian Serbs, Croats and Muslims, and mixed Bosnians, when we defended an army consisting of and led by Bosnian Serbs, Croats and Muslims, and mixed Bosnians, we were precisely opposing the plans of you fascistic allies for ethnically pure states. And of course in the US imposed imperialist Dayton plan ending the Bosnian war in 1995, while the Croatian fascists had to give up their ethnically pure statelet in Bosnia, in exchange for being allowed to get back the Krajina by expelling about 170,000 Serbs in a massive reverse ethnic cleansing, the Serbian fascists did not, they were allowed to keep their ethnically pure Republika Srpska in half of Bosnia.
When the Serbian armed forces attempted to expel the entire population of Kosova, and managed to expel 50% of them, to Shatilla type camps in Macedonia and Albania, wasn't this an attempt to create an ethnically pure Serb state in Kosova, or part of it? When they were defeated, the Albanian extremists also expelled a lot of Serbs and other minorities in large-scale reverse ethnic cleansing. No doubt many of these extremists, or Albanian fascists, or whoever they were, were also attempting to create an ethnically pure state. But no-one in the world is accepting this, including the Kosova government and most forces that came out of the old KLA. Kosova is not allowed to have any independence or even begin a discussion on its future status until it meets gruelling "standards", nearly all of which are based around the rights, the right of return and security for Serbs and minorities. As US Balkans envoy, Charles English, explains, rights and return for the Kosovar Serbs is "the mother of all standards". It would be like if all of Serbia, or Croatia, or Greece, or Turkey, was occupied by imperialism and denied independence until these countries met all kinds of meticulous 'standards' based around rights of ethnic minorities in these countries, all of whom violate such rights. Would anybody stand for that? No, only Kosova has to put up with that.
Is anyone proposing an "Albanian Republic of Kosova" to match your fascistic "Serb Republic of Bosnia" which was created by massacres like this one in Srebrenica? And has piratefish, or me, or anyone else you know, ever advocated such an ethnically pure state? You know the answer, so why do you waste bandwidth with BS arguments?
and the last part of that particular piece of stupidity again:
Ludd:
> and,indeed,wipe Serbia off the face of > the earth (your preferred "final solution").
Me:
That's why I think you are a drunken boofhead. Just who the f advocates wiping Serbia off the map? It is precisely Serbia that has been completely intact you fool. One third of Croatia was ripped out for 4 years, by the Serbian army. You think it was an unforgivable crime that Croatia got it back. Bosnia was ripped to pieces for nearly 4 years by the Serbian army and fascists, and its allied Croatian fascists, and still remains in 3 pieces, two officially, one unofficially. Kosova is the only entity of former Yugoslavia completely denied independence, still under occupation, following a decade of Serbian occupation, during which the entire Kosovar Albanian workforce was sacked from their jobs in an apartheid state. Serbia is completely intact and no-one has ever challenged that. A decade after the Yugoslav catastrophe was launched by Milosevic, NATO rained bombs on Serbia, something everyone here opposes as much as you do, but the aim was never to deny Serbian self-determination. But while the Serbian army was ripping open Croatia, Bosnia and occupying Kosova, did you ever see the Croatian army, or the Bosnian army, or the KLA, overrunning vast chunks of Serbia and ethnically cleansing parts of Serbia to create 'ethnically pure' regions of Serbia for themselves? You've got the whole world in reverse. It is as if Iraq were a threat to US territorial integrity.
Ludd:
> Unfortuneately for you ALL of the peoples of the Balkans have a > right to self-determination - not just those who have the support of > a NATO/"left"/"anti-fascist" alliance.
Me:
Exactly you fool all the peoples have this right - not just Serbs, whose right to self-determination was never contested by anyone, but also Croats, Bosnians, Albanians etc, whose rights to s-d were actively under siege by Serbian fascism through most of the 1990s.
Ludd:
> This video - which everyone knew about years ago (it is in Bosnia > by the way not the Serbian region of Kosovo - sorry to bring > geography into this) -
Me:
Piratefish said nothing about Kosova in his post dummy - everyone knows that the crimes committed by Serbian fascism were vastly greater in Bosnia than in Kosova.
Ludd:
has been produced because the attempt to > blackmail/threaten the populations of the Balkans into compliance > with Imperialist/"left" bowing down to occupation demands
Me:
whatever. Luddspeech.
Ludd:
- joining > NATO/ The European Union have been thrown into disarray by the > people of the very countries of those Imperialist alliances (the > ones you applauded,in effect, in their bombing of the civilian > populations of Yugoslavia when you regurgitated their propaganda > about "rape camps" in Kosovo (lies) and "thousands of bodies down > the Trepca mines"(lies)
Me:
That anyone here "supported" NATO's blitzkrieg against Serbian civilians is the kind of slander equivalent to calling a fellow list member a Nazi, you disgusting piece of worthlessness. On the rest of that passage, there are imperialist lies of course, get used to it, but that does not alter the fact that massacres did occur, that 4000 bodies were dug up in Kosova, that so far another 836 Albanian bodies have been discovered in Serbia, to where they were taken during the war, in places like dumped refrigerator trucks, most buried in mass graves in police compounds, this is not 'NATO propaganda' this is the Serbian government, which is in the (slow) process of transferring the bodies back to Kosova, and has just recently even said they might begin to make arrests for these crimes (wow!), not to mention the fact that there are still 3000 missing from the war, of which 2500 are Albanians. All completely verifiable facts.
Ludd:
> and "Operation Horseshoe" - the plan by > Serbia to drive the Kosova Albanian population from their homes > *before* the NATO/KLA bombing -(lies))
Me:
whatever - lies perhaps. So what? Didn't the Serbian government begin *immediately* as NATO began bombing to do exactly this? And doesn't this suggest some kind of plan? In fact, the irony of the 'horseshoe' allegations, both for imperialist propagandists who used it as a justification for bombing, and for meatheads like Ludd, is that even the alleged plan, whether true or not, was a plan to drive the Albanian population out of Kosova *in the event of a NATO attack*. So everyone knew that was what was going to happen. So one might think socialists could focus their propaganda on the fact that NATO's criminal attack on serb civilians was also the cover that allowed the Serbian Chetnik regime to carry out this plan for the ethnic cleansing of Kosova that previously it was incapable of doing, as in my GLW article at the opening of the war titled 'Kosova Genocide Made in USA'. But no, the Ludds don't want that, because that actually suggests their Milosevic idols actually did something wrong! They would prefer some nonsense about 'the Albanians were fleeing NATO bombs' or 'the refugees in the camps were just propaganda shots and most of them were in fact still living happily in Kosova'
Ludd:
> That leaves your racist,pro-Blair/Bush "liberation armies" up a gum > tree without a paddle - and although there will be many more murders > carried out by your KLA heroes eventually NATO - and scum like you - > will be kicked out of the Balkans and it will be possible to create > a Socilaist federation in the region with due regard to all ethnic > concerns but WITHOUT outside interference
Me:
What idiocy, I have been demanding to know for ages if Ludd wants NATO out of Kosova and he evades by saying he wants it out of the Balkans, well Kosova is in the Balkans dude, and it is us who have been demanding for years that NATO get out of Kosova in order to allow the Kosovars to set up the independent state that 99.9% of them have wanted for decades and which they would set up the same afternoon if NATO got out. Since you think this is the worst possible scenario, how do you plan to stop the Kosovars setting up their independent state if NATO, the only thing stopping them now, gets out?
As for the socialist federation of the Balkans, yes that's what we want. There used to be something close to a socialist federation of Yugoslavia, warts and all, lots of warts perhaps, but at least the Titoist ideology of 'brotherhood and unity' sought to prevent the more gratuitous outpourings of national chauvinism from the dominant nations. Once the rising capitalist class in the late 1980s overthrew Titoism, overthrew socialism, they needed a new ideology of their own, and as rising capitalist classes tend to, they found Serbian national chauvinism (several years later, their Croatian equivalents found Croatian chauvinism). And they found their hack to carry out this social and ideological counterrevolution - Milosevic (3 years later the Croats found Tudjman). Who the hell are you to be talking about a socialist federation of the Balkans when you are a toady for the very forces which ripped the previous attempt apart. A socialist federation can only be based on equality between the various nations. This cannot be achieved by smashing Kosovar autonomy, sacking the entire Albanian workforce, introducing wage differentials between Serb and Albanian workers, driving Albanian doctors and teachers out of their jobs, and then going on to arm Chetnik forces in Croatia and Bosnia to rip open those countries, expel a couple of million non-Serbs and set up ethnically "Serb" statelets in these purified regions.
And speaking of socialism, who is the largest capitalist in the Balkans? Whhat state was his empire built in? What kind of assets does he own? And under whhich regime did he acquire them, and become a government minister?
Answers: Boguljub Karic. Serbia. Telecommunications, mining, banking, media etc etc etc. Milosevic.
Ludd:
> What a piece of pirateshit you are - Imperialist propagandist and > racist ahistorical bullshitter.
Me:
What completely worthless heap of Luddshit you are.
Oh, then he sent another stupid sermon, so I may as well deal with that as well:
Ludd:
It is instructive to see how certain "lefts" only post to this list > when their masters (NATO,Project for a New American > Century,Reporters Without Borders etc. etc.) call them up with their > dog whistles.
Me:
I'm just wondering at what point these kinds of disgusting slanders pass the moderator test for comradely language. Of course I'm not pretending for a moment that my post here is comradely. I'm reacting to his posts, and from here on, until he is called to order, I'll react in this way.
Ludd:
> They are salivating over the release by NATO of film showing Serb > fascist paramilitaries murdering Bosnian civilians
Me:
wow, Serbian fascists. Does this actually indicate that Ludd now admits something about the nature of the Milosevic-Seselj-Karadzic-Chetnik forces in Bosnia? That they are fascists that murdered at least tens of thousands of Bosnian civilians (at least, we can get into how many another time). Good. But in that case, why doesn't he think it just remotely possible that they may have done the same in Kosova?
Ludd:
(thus in their > eyes justifying their own backing of the KLA's terror campaign > against the non-Albanian populations of Kosovo - another country > altogether).
Me:
No, it justifies nothing of the sort, no-one ever suggested it did, that's just more Luddshit. The issue is actually that you are an apologist for war crimes and genocide, everyone else around here has a clean record on that.
Ludd:
--- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "glparramatta" <glparramatta@g...> wrote:
> This is an outrageous statement by Lord Ludd and is clearly in breach> of this list's stated guidelines of comradely discussion. Are you> really suggesting that there comrades on this list in the pay of> imperialism. I suggest you withdraw this lie and apologise.> > Norm.
Well,Norm - I can perfectly understand why you should want anyone who challenges the NATO/Imperialist apologist line on this list to "apologise" - especially when even to mention the NATO/KLA massacres against the civilian population of Yugoslavia was once banned from discussion as I found out when I first joined this list,mentioned Yugoslavia in passing,and was subjected to a viscious diatribe by your resident "Socialist" advocates for a Greater Nato/Albania.
I take it that your demand that I "withdraw"/"apologise" for my TRUE statements is a STALINIST/IMPERIALIST threat on behalf of your racist friends who support a pro-Imperialist ethnically pure Kosovo and a disgusting appeal to have the subject airbrushed from this list once again - the truth hurts,Norm doesn't it? - unless "piratefish" can regurgitate some NATO propaganda and then the subject is "valid".
To try to stifle discussion in this way shows where you are coming from - who ever said anyone was in the "pay" of Imperialism (no doubt you,Norm see everything in terms of money)? - it is just that "piratefish" and his constant advertising of the U.S. anti-Serb sites and nothing else seems a bit suspicious - but of course you could not be "outraged" by that as you are a "good" communist and toe the line - discussion being way,way beyond the pale. Don't bother suckers - I'm leaving the list to you pro-fascist KLA/NATO types - I've said what I have to say - I could call myself a "99 Green Street" liberation movement - kill all of my neighbours and I'm sure that you will all come running to my defence. You are ALL scum and the World's working class know it - it is why there is no real discussion on this list - piss off pro-NATO suckers.
Ben C:
lordludd66 wrote "Don't bother suckers - I'm leaving the list to you pro-fascist KLA/NATO types"
Ah, bliss. Good riddance to a grandstanding, stuck-record nuisance.
(Not to stifle anyone else's contributions who may agree with the substance behind ludd's ill-thought-out rants)
Me:
Amen.
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